Ethan: 0:50

Joining the x-ray team today are Brendan Power. Hello, Brendan. Eric Saltwell.

Brendan: 1:05

Hello.

Erik: 1:07

Howdy, Internet people.

Ethan: 1:09

And myself, Ethan Schoonover. As always, before jumping into the main course, we like to start things off with a amuse-bouche we call Appendix X.

Erik: 1:20

So in Appendix X, we do a little summary of all the media we are consuming currently with a particular eye toward how it could be applied to gaming. Brendan, why don't you kick us off with talking about your Appendix X?

Brendan: 1:31

Yeah, so I have been slowly making my way through Alan Wake 2, which I've certainly enjoyed.[LAUGH] It has obviously a lot of critical success, if not apparent financial success. But it is a game where, and I think you've talked a little bit about it in the past, Eric, but the thing I have been thinking about with respect to Alan Wake and RPGs is about the tone shifts. So the game has obviously dark and mysterious and moodiness to it that is sort of generic creepy horror vibes, I guess. But it also has these ludicrous Finnish musical interludes and other ridiculous affectations that I love. In part because apparently the Pacific Northwest in the minds of the Finnish developers contains tons of Finns, which is, I think, amusing to me. But also just because it does a good job of using the levity to sort of offset the horror, but also to complement it, right? So when I think about games like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying, that game has a very conscious sort of occasional slapstick tone. They use a lot of puns in their words, but also has a very sort of dark underlying thematic battle versus chaos and mutations and horrific happenings. I think it's a good reminder to me that not every game has to be dark delta green kind of stuff, that there are ways to both lighten

Ethan: 2:56

Yeah, I love that you're doing LWA too.

Brendan: 3:00

the mood, but also create the sort of tension between humor and especially gallows humor in some cases and the actual content of a dark game world.

Ethan: 3:11

I just, last week I came back from camping with my son and promptly caught a cold. And for me, the upside, I get very excited when I have a little cold because

Brendan: 3:20

[LAUGH]

Ethan: 3:21

it's the only time that I seem to get to play video games lately. And I sat down and played Alan Wake 1. And that was, I had played the first 10 to 20 minutes of it before and I'd kind of been like, well, I just didn't, I don't know, I didn't fall into it or I bounced off it a little bit. But I ran through the whole game this time. And I could tell it was, there was, if I remember the development of Alan Wake 1

Brendan: 3:43

Yeah.

Ethan: 3:45

was sort of like survival horror initially, or just like a survival game or something. And then they kind of like shifted it. But you could tell like it was sort of like, there were parts that were a little bit of a mishmash. But the best moments for me were the moments where there was a little bit of humor.

Brendan: 4:00

Yeah.

Ethan: 4:00

And I remember, I think I talked about this in our Discord chat, but I said, I wish that it had leaned even further into that. So it's nice to hear that they did that in 2 and it makes me want to play it.

Brendan: 4:11

Yeah, no, I think you'll very much enjoy two in that respect.

Ethan: 4:11

Yes.

Brendan: 4:14

And so one, I assume you were playing the remastered version that came out recently? Yeah, I think they firmed up the controls a little bit and made it a little less clunky,

Ethan: 4:19

[laughs]

Brendan: 4:23

because when I originally played it on the 360 a million years ago,

Ethan: 4:23

Uh-huh.

Brendan: 4:26

it was a labor of love, shall we say. I loved the setting. I did not love the controls.

Ethan: 4:31

Yes.

Brendan: 4:33

And so it took me several years to actually get through and finish it.

Ethan: 4:33

Yes.

Erik: 4:36

>> That reminds me very much of the rock band scene in Alan Wake One. And you're kind of up on a stage and it's this big set piece,

Brendan: 4:46

Finish, Eric, finish.

Erik: 4:46

almost a tower-to-fence-y feel. And I loved the tone and how they did that switch in tone and also the intersection with kind of Swedish and Northern European music.

Ethan: 4:59

Yeah, yeah.

Erik: 5:00

Was it, are you, okay, I mean, but I feel like as the home of the Swedish

Ethan: 5:01

[laughs]

Brendan: 5:03

Please, please, please, Swedes, don't write angry letters or fins.

Erik: 5:06

cultural center that the Pacific Northwest is more Swedish than Finnish.

Ethan: 5:06

[laughs]

Brendan: 5:13

[LAUGH]

Erik: 5:13

But I guess that's your point, right?

Brendan: 5:14

Yes.[LAUGH]

Ethan: 5:16

Yeah, please, yes, send us physical letters.

Brendan: 5:18

Actually, I hope we do get letters. Letters would be amazing. Please send us letters. Yeah.[LAUGH]

Erik: 5:25

Go at him, Internet people. Ethan, how about you?

Ethan: 5:27

Two main content media properties that I've been consuming lately are the German television show Dark. Amazing.

Brendan: 5:35

[LAUGH]

Erik: 5:35

So, so good, I loved it.

Ethan: 5:38

It is my, this is my rowing show. So my rule is I can only watch it when I row. I row every day for 30 minutes. So I watch it in not, it doesn't line up, unfortunately. So like the rhythm, you know, when you watch a TV show, there's an arc to an episode. And the 30 minutes never seems to line up with the arc quite so I am really, it is a huge motivation to get back on that rowing machine and like see what happens next.

Erik: 6:04

Nice.

Ethan: 6:04

But besides that, I also just, I'm close to finishing Archive 81, the TV show. I previously listened to the podcast. I don't think I finished the podcast though. And this is a TV show for those who don't know. It's about a man who is a tape restorer, both in the podcast and in the TV show. Although he's restoring videotapes in the TV show. Am I correct about that? He's a tape, yeah.

Erik: 6:28

Yep, he has his restoring video tips.

Ethan: 6:29

And he's restoring audio tapes in the podcast, if I'm correct, right?

Brendan: 6:30

Yep. That sounds right.

Ethan: 6:33

Yeah. So, or, or he's listening to them. That's his job in the, in the podcast. So yeah, what I like about this show is everything. It's great. And just makes me angry at Netflix for having canceled it after season one.

Brendan: 6:44

[LAUGH]

Ethan: 6:48

Yeah.

Erik: 6:50

So can we say, and correct me here if I'm totally getting it wrong,

Ethan: 6:50

I don't. So this is interesting you say that because I actually don't know what specifically they

Erik: 6:54

only thing that I really, that I don't care for about Archive 81 is that they absolutely ripped off Dennis Detweiler and its basis from.

Brendan: 7:03

Eric, the term is homage.[LAUGH]

Ethan: 7:13

ripped off, but I've heard this, I think from you, Brendan.

Brendan: 7:16

Yes.

Ethan: 7:16

And I would like to hear more about that. I can, I absolutely would buy that because I think Dennis Detwiller is got some of it has some amazing writing and this feels tonally like a Delta green scenario to me or, or something

Brendan: 7:30

Yes, it is in fact, I mean,

Ethan: 7:30

like that. Yeah.

Brendan: 7:32

the creator of the podcast and, you know, essentially, and ultimately the show that obviously as well, you know, did write online years ago that he was creating a podcast based on his experience with Delta Green scenario Night Floors, which is, you know, there's Night Floors,

Ethan: 7:50

Night floors. Yeah.

Brendan: 7:52

which was part of the original Delta Green release back in the 90s

Ethan: 7:52

Yeah You

Brendan: 7:56

and has been redone and also incorporated into Impossible Landscapes, which is the recent RPG campaign that Delaware wrote for the current version of Delta Green. And yeah, I mean, you know, like the premise of the show is the same

Ethan: 8:11

You

Brendan: 8:12

fundamental premise of the adventure. And, you know, I don't really have a good sense of, you know, whether Dennis feels like his ownership was scrubbed away from it.

Ethan: 8:19

You

Erik: 8:23

I actually, I have seen some tweets by him saying that he was not,

Brendan: 8:24

But, you know, anyway.

Erik: 8:29

that was pretty accusatory and unhappy.

Ethan: 8:29

You Yeah

Brendan: 8:33

Yeah, I mean, you know, Ethan, I would happily, you know, recommend that you read Night Floors or better yet, we could play it.

Ethan: 8:42

Well, that's too bad it's gonna it's gonna color the wrap-up of that show for me but

Brendan: 8:43

But yeah, I think you would find that there's a lot of similarities. I mean, fundamentally, the premise of the adventure is that there is a woman

Ethan: 8:52

You

Erik: 8:53

Yep.

Brendan: 8:55

who is missing and, you know, the investigators have to search for her. And of course, there's an apartment building and there's a mysterious forces at work, obviously.

Erik: 9:07

For my appendix X, I recently started playing with Brendan and other co-host Jason and a bunch of other people, the new computer game Solium Infernum, which is a turn-based strategy game that feels a lot like multiplayer civilization, but rather than taking place in a fictional Earth-like world, actually takes place in hell.

Ethan: 9:26

You

Erik: 9:31

And you all play Archdukes and are competing to become the next head of hell.

Ethan: 9:36

You

Erik: 9:38

And what's really interesting about this game and what I think,

Brendan: 9:39

What's the head of hell called, Eric? What's the title?

Erik: 9:42

the Dark Majesty, I actually don't remember.

Brendan: 9:45

Anyway, go ahead.

Erik: 9:46

Yep.

Brendan: 9:47

No, no, I was going to say, you know, it's I think the idea is that the devil has abdicated or run off somewhere, presumably in retirement.

Ethan: 9:53

You

Brendan: 9:55

And the rest of the arch fiends are bickering, essentially.

Ethan: 9:55

You

Erik: 10:00

No, I think he just disappears.

Brendan: 10:04

Yes, he did a good deed.

Erik: 10:04

Yeah, something like that. Yes. And the intersection for me with gaming is that this is a turn-based game

Ethan: 10:15

You

Erik: 10:16

and the way that they do multiplayer allows you to do asynchronous multiplayer. So it feels just like, as Brendan was saying before we started recording, it feels a lot like play by post where you enter your turn and then the game waits for everybody to complete their turn. And then once it's done, all kind of actions happen either simultaneously or in a specified order. But the way this happens is you go in, you do your turn, you wait, you get a notification saying, hey, there's a new turn ready. And when you log back in, it shows you everything that happened and all of the resolution mechanics that get applied. And it's actually been pretty compelling. And the idea of doing play by post in a TTRPG for PVP playing felt like, actually, that was a good opportunity to remove some of the problematic parts of PVP play. And I have also been watching with my son Brooklyn Nine-Nine,

Ethan: 11:14

Hmm

Erik: 11:15

and they have a very famous every year Halloween episode that it is

Ethan: 11:16

You

Erik: 11:20

they declare something and all the people in the department or all the main characters try to steal this object and become the greatest thief of all time. And I've been thinking about maybe trying to do play over Discord, play by post of a heist challenge like this where all the players each play a thief and then you're all trying to steal some object to be declared the winner of the tournament. And the GM can then resolve stuff over time. So that's what I've been thinking about.

Ethan: 11:51

Cool beans looking forward to it and enjoy your game in hell everyone All right, let's do it

Erik: 11:57

Thank you. So let's move on to the main topic. Today's topic is classes.

Ethan: 12:01

You

Erik: 12:08

As always, we will start the discussion with the definition of classes.

Ethan: 12:11

You

Erik: 12:13

And I'm going to say that a class is a collection of skills, and a skill is some mechanical advantage or move or action that you can take that has specific mechanics applied to it. So this may be in Dungeons & Dragons, you may have access to being able to cast a specific spell that has a set of mechanics tied to it. It may be that you are playing Apocalypse World, and your playbook, which is effectively a class, has a specific set of moves, which is different. Because when your player does Axe, you resolve that in a unique way rather than using the generic resolution mechanism. So that often provides you with some kind of advantage. And the goal here of classes, or one of them at least, is that you, by bundling together a collection of skills, you provide an implied play style for your character. And I have really been interested in thinking a lot about what is the benefit of classes, and also the cost of classes. And for me, if you look at D&D, one of the things that really ruins play for me is actually classes. And we should get into that and talk about it. But at the same time, I will say that there are some RPGs out there that are classless, and when I read them, it is often hard for me to get interested and excited to play those games. And I don't know if it's coincidence, or if there's something about being classless that is negative, but when I've been thinking about game design, I've been very compelled by this idea that skills and classes often create problematic, boring play, and how do you get past that? So what do you guys think about classes?

Ethan: 15:17

So, it's interesting that you talk about D&D, that's in this whole idea of like a proper mix of a class, because I'm pretty sure for the first couple of years that I played D&D, my friends and I would all play thieves, because we thought they were the coolest. Like, we didn't think about the mix, and still to this day, like I know people who are like very focused on when you play like a traditional fantasy D&D or D&D-esque game having that right mix, and I actually like fight against that. I'm like, you know, I don't want the typical like tank, healer, combo, you know, fight, whatever, magician, wizard.

Brendan: 15:56

>> But I mean, that constraint is still in your head, right? You're still, you're actually, you may be choosing to subvert it, but

Erik: 15:59

So I think there are two things here and

Brendan: 16:02

I guess you're saying when you were a teenager.

Ethan: 16:03

Well the constraint of the class is, the constraint of the class is, but Eric, I don't know, what

Brendan: 16:04

>> Yeah.

Ethan: 16:07

do you think? Are you pro a whole team of clerics? Hell yeah! Monastery got raided! They need to go out and fight the bad guys!

Erik: 16:14

I am actually very pro team of all clerics in my other group. When I was GMing it, I was always pushing we should either all play rogues or all play clerics. Yeah, and I actually think, That's right.

Ethan: 16:29

Mhm.

Erik: 16:30

And I actually think it solves a problem in true play, which is, in true play, you often have X number of characters with X number of agendas. And this can create, I think, some problems with spotlight sharing and

Ethan: 16:40

Mhm.

Erik: 16:44

cohesiveness and good narrative. That having one group, which you don't require really all five classes, but playing a thieves guild or playing a church in a fantasy setting can overcome that. I think there's a few things though. The idea that there are two games at play. There's the game you play at the table and the game you play away from the table, which is about character development and character creation. I think this is true even in like Dragon Age or Mass Effect. But what we all want, I think, is great play at the table. And sometimes people do this thing like, Oh, we can't have five clerics. Oh, I want to choose the most optimal character options that I possibly can. And I'm okay with that discussion and thinking about it. And I will take any game I can get at the table or away, but you really don't want the away from the table game to interfere with or affect or reduce the tension and fun in the at the table game. And hearing you talk, Ethan, a little bit about, or Brendan, both of you,

Brendan: 17:54

>> Yep.

Erik: 17:54

sorry, hearing you guys talk about that mix of character classes and what's optimal and the problem with playing five rogues actually takes me to the thing that I hate the most about classes, which is that there is a dark side to niche protection. And that is that while niches do create opportunities for spotlighting and a diversity of characters, each of which have their own specialization, it also does, and I've heard this term somewhere on the internet, create a generic optimum, which is to say in most situations, your set of skills implies what is the generically optimal thing to do. And the more optimal it becomes, the more it becomes more generically optimal. And what I mean by that is that it's pervasively optimal in a broader and broader set of situations, it becomes the optimum thing to do. And this is boring because.

Brendan: 19:00

>> So you mean something like people who are knowingly assembling a party where a MMORPG kind of sort of situation where one person is the tank and one is the healer and one is the ranged special,

Erik: 19:10

And that the game actually, even more than an optimum party,

Brendan: 19:14

like that kind of thing, Eric? Is that what you're, you're suggesting that the outcome of classes is that people seek to build an optimum party?

Erik: 19:28

in the moment when you're in an encounter, right? And whether or not that's I just walked into a pagan temple and I'm trying to convince them to do something or I just snuck into a bank in order to steal something. The problem is that if you have a class which says, here's my skills and those skills are advantageous, then I am going to want to use that skill over and over and over because it is the higher chance success thing to do. And the game design kind of says, hey, I'm giving you this skill with a benefit because I am pushing you towards doing that. And so if you are the ranged melee guy, right? Then every problem is something that you're figuring out, well, how do I solve this with a bow? Or if you're playing an illusionist, then every problem becomes how do I solve this by using my illusions that I've created optimal illusionist character. And so that becomes the more generically good thing to do. This is much more problematic as I go up in level. There's a little bit of a level zero movement in 5e that's been around for a while, which is to say, the game is more fun when you're level zero. And that's because actions that would have been interesting and successful and maybe even the most advantageous thing you can do like, oh, I'm going to burn down the building or I'm going to play some explosives or

Ethan: 21:00

Yeah. That is... You know, I wonder if that's why we have... Okay, I would have always said

Erik: 21:04

I'm going to make an ambush. But when I'm 30th level or when I'm 15th level, those things are no longer optimal because there's no way they compete with the growth in your character sheet and the skills that you've listed.

Ethan: 21:22

that we don't have so much upper level play because in D&D, just because it takes so long to get there, but I also wonder whether or not it's also just in some ways less fun. For me at least. I definitely prefer, like, I mean, you know me, I'm like, you know, I like that kind of zero level, you know, you're a nobody play. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, here's my... I would posit something then, which is that low level play in D&D is classless play. You know what I mean? Like, in a way, right? In

Erik: 22:49

I think that's right.

Ethan: 22:53

a way... Yeah, okay, okay, I understand. Yeah, yeah. Sure, but, you know, outside of that,

Erik: 23:06

But you're still talking about a difference of three hit points

Ethan: 23:09

right? In terms of like the... Yeah, yeah. And in terms of like the decisions you're

Erik: 23:11

versus nine hit points, right?

Ethan: 23:18

making, the way you approach problems, like of necessity, the constraint of having like no feats and skills and super high level abilities and etc. No magic sword. Like, you are scrambling. You're using the chalk and the piece of string that you have in your pocket, you know? Yeah.

Erik: 23:34

Yep, which is much more interesting play that when people come up with that,

Ethan: 23:38

Yes.

Erik: 23:38

like I know how to use the string in my pocket, that people,

Ethan: 23:41

Okay, so now let me just... Before we lose track of D&D, because I want to make sure

Erik: 23:41

those are great moments of play that people feel even more proud of. And in a way, it's like taking the I rolled a 20, which is an awesome moment, but it turns it up to 11.

Ethan: 23:58

that we get into like some classless systems and all that as well. But the origin of classes, I think we should recognize is kind of like it has two parents, right? It has the parent of wargaming, where you had like different, you know, infantry, and then you know, you

Erik: 24:08

Yep.

Ethan: 24:12

had cavalry and whatever, you had these different roles, you had effectively different classes in wargaming. So there's that sort of origin. But there's also the origin of we're ripping off Tolkien, and we're recreating the Hobbit. And that idea of wanting to have that kind

Erik: 24:25

That's right.

Ethan: 24:29

of like narrative trope come out in play is also like that's the second parent. And you see that I think I think you feel that kind of like fun narrative component more at the low level before you've over specialized, which is weird, because like in some ways, like the higher level characters, you know, they have more spells, you're more of a Merlin or you're more of a Gandalf, right? But if you're if you're a wizard, for example, you

Erik: 24:54

Yep.

Ethan: 24:57

know, more, more spells at your disposal. But if you're like a low level Hobbit character who just finds that one little magic item, and, and suddenly now this is an issue, but then you're you're, you're solving riddles, and you're you've got, you know, you have that little bit of string and you have whatever is going on, you know, in your little life with your few choices, like that's much more interesting narratively. Yes, you know, right? You see what I'm saying? I mean, the two parented the lineage, you mean the two? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Erik: 25:23

Absolutely. So Ethan, describe for me, what is the difference between these two types of actions? I love what you're saying, by the way, this is not me pushing back at all. No, no, that there's a class of action that you were talking about that feels like, I'm just, I got some string in my pocket and I came up with a great idea versus choosing something on my character sheet. Why do those, what is really the difference between those?

Ethan: 25:49

Well, sure. And well, let me ask you this, though. Do you think that I'll answer that

Erik: 25:52

Like, what is the type of action that you're talking about that isn't picking from your character sheet that is so compelling that designers in an ideal world could optimize for? Yeah.

Ethan: 26:06

with a question? This is a classic Dodge. This is my my one special feat as a podcast

Erik: 26:11

[LAUGH]

Ethan: 26:12

host. So do you think that the people play RPGs differently if they grew up with video games than if they didn't have like initial early exposure to like, say, RPG style, you know, computer computer RPGs or what have you? I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Well, the reason

Erik: 26:31

That's, yeah, I think that there is a there there that you're getting at. But at the same time, I'm not sure that I see it when I play with the younger players.

Ethan: 26:40

I ask that is because I think that in so, you know, when we were trying to figure out D&D when I was 11, 12, right, we we played it very much like, you know, none of us like

Erik: 26:47

Yep.

Ethan: 26:52

this is the this is the 80s. None of us had played any real video games like this was we encountered D&D, I think, before video games and just before. Right. And, you know, within a span of a couple of years, I was playing Zork and text adventures. And those text adventures have a very different quality to an RPG or, you know, a computer RPG. Right. They have they have a weird kind of like lateral thinking quality to them quite often that you don't have in a lot of computer games. You do see that lateral puzzle solving in

Erik: 27:21

Absolutely.

Ethan: 27:24

a lot of like 90s puzzley adventures like Monkey Island and, you know, many. Yeah. No,

Erik: 27:31

All the Infocom stuff.

Ethan: 27:34

so the info com stuff for sure, like the pre the the pre graphic info com stuff for sure.

Erik: 27:39

Yep. So, and actually let's contrast that with, say, in early Ultima or Wizards,

Ethan: 27:41

Right. Yeah. Right. Right. I don't I don't know, but Ultima for sure. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Erik: 27:46

right? Is that the name of the game, Wizards? Wizardry. Where it really felt like it felt more like this play that we're talking about that's problematic where your party moves forward and you're like, yes, my

Ethan: 28:01

Yeah.

Erik: 28:02

barbarian. And you click the rage button and then you do your attack.

Ethan: 28:06

Yeah.

Erik: 28:07

And the wizard, he picks the highest level spell that he can that's damage dealing. And the rogue moves to the back of the line and then is shooting their crossbow or something. And contrasting that with Infocom, I think these are really two very, I think these really do equate, let's say, to the war gaming tradition and the Tolkien tradition, right? Where on the one hand, you have this narrative tradition of Infocom and lateral thinking. And I love that. Actually, that's like, to me, that is the gold standard of play that every time I sit down at a table, my hope is I can walk away feeling like, oh, my God, I did that lateral thinking and it worked and got rewarded. And I'm really happy. Versus the Ultima play or the Wizardry play where it's literally just, okay, I

Ethan: 28:58

Yeah. Yeah.

Erik: 29:03

actually know ahead of time usually what I'm going to do when we hit an encounter. Like, oh, it's a persuasion encounter. And so I'm going to be deceptive because I have high deception. Or it's a combat encounter and so I'm going to do foo. And we know that we're in a dungeon and so the rogue's going to move ahead of the party by 30 feet or whatever it is. And these feel very, I totally agree with you. I think these feel very different.[ное ПИП]

Ethan: 30:16

Yeah.

Erik: 30:21

Yeah.[NO SPEECH]

Brendan: 30:29

>> But to your point, Ethan, I think one of the things that's interesting about

Ethan: 30:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Brendan: 30:35

classes is the sort of narrative structure it gives people who ordinarily might

Ethan: 30:40

Yeah.

Brendan: 30:41

be looking for, hey, what activity should I be pursuing in this game?

Ethan: 30:45

Yeah.

Brendan: 30:47

So there's a notion that if I have chosen the class archaeology, I have an idea of what my activities are, and everyone else does as well.

Erik: 30:53

[NO SPEECH]

Ethan: 30:57

Yeah.

Brendan: 30:59

They will defer to me for archaeological things, and I will defer to them for shooting things.

Ethan: 31:00

Yeah.

Brendan: 31:05

So that's the situation I find myself in, but it does create a common expectation, which I think is really valuable for comedy.

Ethan: 31:20

Yeah.

Erik: 31:22

[NO SPEECH]

Ethan: 31:23

Yeah. Yeah.

Erik: 31:44

So, I don't know.

Ethan: 31:48

Yeah.

Erik: 31:49

Let me think about that. I will talk for a second about some game systems

Ethan: 31:51

Yeah.

Erik: 31:53

that try to do things in the design to overcome them. I'm not sure how successful they are. For example, Blades in the Dark and many Forged in the Dark

Ethan: 32:00

Yeah.

Erik: 32:02

games have playbooks. And the playbooks have special moves or abilities.

Ethan: 32:05

Yeah.

Erik: 32:07

But they explicitly call out in the rules

Ethan: 32:08

Right.

Erik: 32:09

that you can pick any ability from anywhere. And so you can choose to dip outside of your playbook. But I think the problem here is, well, once I've added whatever from my playbook, it still happens. Every new ability and every time my skill scores go up, that calcification that you're talking about, I still think happens.

Ethan: 32:32

Yeah.

Erik: 32:32

I think in Call of Cthulhu, and in there,

Ethan: 32:35

Yeah.

Erik: 32:37

it's a skill-based system. So there's no classes. But it still, I think, happens. People have an idea for what type of play they want to make.

Ethan: 32:42

Yeah.

Erik: 32:44

And they create that optimal-- that's what they put their points into, at which point

Ethan: 32:47

Yeah.

Erik: 32:50

they start that calcification again. So I still think that happens. The closest that I think happens is games

Ethan: 32:53

Yeah.

Erik: 32:58

where you are intended to play level 0 or less.

Ethan: 33:00

Yeah.

Erik: 33:03

The best example that I've been--

Ethan: 33:03

Yeah.

Erik: 33:05

and I've actually been looking at this because I've been trying to recreate this experience-- is the Powered by the Apocalypse game Warren, or Warrens, which is a Watership Down-inspired game. And they are very clear that they want you to play rabbits because rabbits are weak. And they should be afraid of everything.

Ethan: 33:23

Yeah.

Erik: 33:27

And so by not giving you abilities,

Ethan: 33:27

Yeah. Yeah.

Erik: 33:31

you have to do that lateral thinking. And that is, to me, even more-- so when I look at it, it's less about bundling skills into classes and more about, do you have skills in the first place? And once you have skills, that this generically optimal thing to do then becomes a problem. And I will say, though, I think the trade-off

Ethan: 33:55

Yeah.

Erik: 33:58

is that D&D, which is the paragon of this calcification you're talking about, is also the best game ever at long-form campaign play. That that calcification does provide, like we talked about in the progression episode, the type of change and improvement that-- I don't know-- the number of campaigns that are multi-year, five-year campaigns

Ethan: 34:25

Oh, interesting.

Erik: 34:26

that people play outside of D&D is super vanishingly small. And I mean, in a way that even people who I talk to who are playing other systems don't get to that five-year experience when they're playing other systems. And I don't know if these aren't somehow linked.[AUDIO OUT]

Ethan: 34:44

Brendan for the listener. I just would like to communicate that Brendan's eyes his brows were up. His eyes were scanning the horizon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Erik: 37:30

[AUDIO OUT]

Ethan: 37:35

Yeah.

Erik: 37:38

[AUDIO OUT]

Ethan: 37:38

Right.

Erik: 37:41

[AUDIO OUT]

Ethan: 37:42

You know the other I just want to toss this out there. I wonder how much of this is a phenomenon of late 20th century capitalism insofar as you have the expectation in the 70s and 80s that you're going to have a job and that's going to be your job. And you will then retire from your job and you and you had job.

Erik: 38:05

[AUDIO OUT]

Ethan: 38:08

Yes, it has. I wonder whether or not the shifting landscape of employment and identity and the realization that, you know, identity does not need to be bound up with employment that as that has shifted and continues to shift radically. I wonder whether or not like if you were to create D&D today, do you think it would be so job like it's you have a job your class is your job in D&D right.

Brendan: 38:37

>> Yeah, so sometimes your job is elf.

Ethan: 38:38

Right, your job is elf your job is you you work for the thieves guild right like you have an employer with some retirement plan one assumes.

Brendan: 38:39

[LAUGH] Yeah. I mean, even I love, I really do appreciate the sensibility ring to this, because I do think there is something to this. So like, I mean, wasn't Gary Gygax like, I mean, yeah, he's like,

Ethan: 38:55

He was an insurance guy.

Brendan: 38:58

so like obviously his job is not, you know, he didn't,

Ethan: 38:59

Yeah, yeah.

Brendan: 39:02

I guess he doesn't seem too into it as the.

Ethan: 39:03

Probably not. Yeah, he was trying to pivot, as we say now.

Brendan: 39:04

[LAUGH] Right. Yeah, respect, you respect.

Ethan: 39:09

Right.

Erik: 39:18

[AUDIO OUT]

Ethan: 39:19

Yeah.

Erik: 39:27

[AUDIO OUT]

Ethan: 39:33

Yeah.

Erik: 39:37

[AUDIO OUT][AUDIO OUT]

Ethan: 39:40

Right. And you get promoted. Right. You have quarterly reviews.

Brendan: 39:46

And I feel like I only get worse at my job, my actual job.

Erik: 39:49

[AUDIO OUT]

Ethan: 39:51

That's because you're in a doom spiral. It's a it's actually reality. Reality is more call of Cthulhu than D&D.

Brendan: 39:53

[LAUGH]

Erik: 39:55

[AUDIO OUT]

Brendan: 39:57

That is sad, but true.

Erik: 40:02

[AUDIO OUT]

Ethan: 40:11

Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

Erik: 42:06

Maybe as a culture, we've ingrained this so much into our play style that you don't find a lot of game design going on around it that isn't just, well, everybody's the same, and there's no design to help overcome any of the problems. Yep.

Ethan: 42:20

Right.

Erik: 42:33

You You yep

Ethan: 42:47

Right. Right. Right. Right.

Erik: 43:01

Yep Yep You

Ethan: 43:17

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And and that the more that you can create that heads up play instead of heads down play is that that to me is success. And I you know my trick with the girls was we did weeks and weeks and weeks of zero level play. It was just my whole goal was it was much more interpersonal and social development, social emotional stuff that I was working on. And I wanted them to understand what collaborative cooperative play at the table was also the whole idea that this is a game that you cooperate in and you're not just trying to win.

Erik: 43:44

That's great Yep You

Ethan: 44:03

Like so that I mean we did it for really for weeks and then the end of that was graduation from like literally I must have been like eight weeks of zero level play and then we moved on to like they finally got to first level blew their minds. But I don't know. I feel like that baked it in enough like they could in some ways it was their characters down the road from that word. It was just flavor for them.

Erik: 44:26

Yeah

Ethan: 44:27

You know, it was like trope of flavor.

Erik: 44:28

Yeah, actually I did see that I feel like when I was helping out with the with the girl school that Yeah, yep

Ethan: 44:34

Which can be by the way crazy as you probably saw as well because then you'll get kids who just are like, well, I'm going to do this thing because it seems like a cool thing to do at this moment and you're like, well, but the rules. But so it requires a flex on the GM's part in a way we were playing a different game.

Erik: 44:49

Yep just to call back to Ethan you were asking about rule systems that may be promoted the heads-up play and The one example that just came into my mind was the setup action in forged in the dark game So, let me explain in forged in the dark games when you are in a situation that situation has

Ethan: 45:08

Sure.

Erik: 45:13

Or when you take an action that action has an implied danger level and how impactful are you likely to be if you succeed and this kind of describes the situation you're in and you can imagine that oh if You know if you've all staked out the top of a building and you've designed an ambush and you're waiting for the bad guys

Ethan: 45:30

Sure.

Erik: 45:38

To come through you are gonna have a really high impact because you all have high-powered sniper sniper rifles And it's actually low danger because you are all up on these buildings until until a helicopter flies in and at that point you realize oh no, I am in a ton of danger and One of the moves that comes with forged in the dark is an action called setup action. And this is an action that is

Ethan: 45:59

Sure.

Erik: 46:01

Loosely defined it's it's a generic action that everybody can take it's not tied to a class and all it says is that hey You could take an action. That's not designed to resolve the conflict of the encounter it is designed in order to change the impact and danger parameters of of the situation and people who play there's a style of play where most situations start again thinking about being a rabbit or something most situations start with you know crazy high lethal danger and Zero impact and then how do we creatively use set up actions in order to change those? So that now we can go take actions and those actions now are likely to be less dangerous and more impactful and I have seen play like that and GM's and some games although the names are escaping me they're forged in the dark games that are really built around this concept of you start at Crazy high danger and no impact and people have to do lateral thinking in order to get to it. That's about as close to a Design system that is promoting that style of play as I've seen Yep

Brendan: 47:19

>> I'm not sure, Eric, can you give me an example of a set of action? Or I need some context.

Erik: 47:25

Yeah, sure, so You know, I'm gonna take us to Hold on. Yes, we played Siren, which is a it's designed by I think Vincent Baker and his wife and we were playing and this is a Concept of the game is that you wake up and your entire party is being transported to some black site prison And you've all been captured because you actually turn out to have mutant powers or something very kind of fire starter esque and people are after you to get to you and

Brendan: 48:02

>> Okay.

Erik: 48:03

we were in the middle of a street and we were They were the players were I think trying to escape and then all of a sudden a bunch of you know black SUVs show up and out pour the guys in suits with mp5s and The players were like, okay. Here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna take my hand pistol I'm gonna fire it in the air or I'm gonna shoot Like a gas tank and create an explosion with the goal that yeah exactly I think that was you Ethan and the goal was that The street would get filled with people and it would become a big mob scene and that all of a sudden Reduces the danger right and again here that that goal wasn't necessarily about getting away, but it was about Changing changing the situation. You could also I've also played some 5e games where people have done in action like that where say somebody is an opponent and is covered with armor and You literally can't get through the armor And so all of a sudden you're thinking about what can I do to remove that armor so that we become? So that our attacks now all of a sudden are impactful and while 5e doesn't have any rules around that I can imagine modeling the same type of situation in in a fortune the dark game

Brendan: 49:17

>> Gotcha.

Ethan: 49:18

>> Can we talk a little bit about systems like Call of Cthulhu or skill-based where you just have 1,000 skills.[LAUGH]

Erik: 49:27

Yeah

Ethan: 49:27

And you can add some points into them.

Erik: 49:29

So

Ethan: 49:30

What are we calling those?

Erik: 49:33

And I think skill based is fine

Ethan: 49:33

I mean, are they skill-based RPGs? Are they classless skill-based RPGs? What's our term of art here?

Erik: 49:41

I think classless skill based is more accurate and descriptive, but I don't know that this is the first time

Ethan: 49:45

Yeah, yeah.

Erik: 49:47

I've heard somebody use that term, but I think it's spot-on and Yeah

Ethan: 49:53

Do you think they're appealing to min-maxers? Right, they're Indiana Jones, so that totally works.

Erik: 50:21

So I think I Mean, I I think the real trade-off here is not that it's while the game design is classless in play I think it is classful, but it's custom classes, right people still design

Ethan: 50:39

Mm-hm.

Erik: 50:41

For that generic optimum like Brendan was saying but you can pick any path if you have like a really interesting Collection of skills that you think would be interesting to have high values in

Ethan: 50:52

Right.

Erik: 50:52

You can do that in a way that you can't with with 5e something that is really a very structured class

Ethan: 50:59

Well, this is something I hit on with gumshoe system games all the time,

Erik: 51:00

Yep

Ethan: 51:04

which is that you have all these skills which are library skill, whatever, right? Archeology, architecture.

Erik: 51:12

You

Ethan: 51:13

And very rarely, so I wouldn't say that those are classless systems insofar as

Erik: 51:14

Yep, yep

Ethan: 51:19

if you ever play with a pre-gen character. Actually, in any of these classless systems, if you play with a pre-gen character, it is sort of a class as well, right? Like quite, that is so interesting.

Erik: 51:29

You Yeah

Ethan: 51:31

Actually, if you think about it, in gumshoe, I know that it's often explicitly stated that the mix of the party, going back to true play, Brendan, that you mentioned,

Brendan: 51:41

>> Yeah.

Ethan: 51:42

the mix of the party should cover all the skills more or less.

Brendan: 51:45

>> Yeah, I mean, Gumshoe has that little chart where you're supposed to use to like sketch out,

Erik: 51:47

You

Brendan: 51:49

does someone have landscape architecture or whatever?

Erik: 51:49

Yep

Ethan: 51:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in the reality of play, I don't know that it would ever be a problem. I would just find, as a GM, I would find some other way for you guys to notice the cornice piece on the building or whatever.

Brendan: 52:03

>> Right.

Ethan: 52:06

So, but in those, so that I was thinking of those as classless,

Erik: 52:07

You That's right

Ethan: 52:10

and I actually think of those less, like, they still have a lot of the same issues or requirements that kind of need to balance the troop. The pre-gen characters being sort of preset, they're not maybe not as exclusive because potentially you could start to build up skill in a certain area. But realistically, most of the games where you start off with a high-level skill, nobody's ever going to catch up to you.

Brendan: 52:33

>> Yeah, one thing that just occurred to me as you were talking, Ethan, is like,

Ethan: 52:33

Right.

Erik: 52:34

You

Brendan: 52:37

class-based systems, obviously, like we've been talking about the ways in which they enable specific things because you get skills or spells or abilities that are specific to that class.

Ethan: 52:45

Yeah.

Brendan: 52:47

But I mean, they also implicitly constrain your character as well, right? Like, if you are, I mean, back in the early days of D&D, like you had very limited weapon choices, for example, if you were a cleric or a druid or what have you,

Ethan: 53:02

Mm.

Brendan: 53:03

limited armor choices, but also, you were never going to gain access to certain spells or abilities outside of the sort of multi-class dual-esque kind of conundrum. And so, I think even in modern systems, there is this notion that I guess you are constrained from certain activities unless you defer those to the people who are better suited for them. And I think there's, I'm not quite certain I have a good sense of what that implies for the design of RPGs, but I definitely think it means that those constraints make room for other people to be successful, which I think is like, I mean, we're all playing these games to hang out and enjoy each other's company primarily. And so, making space for those at the table, I think, in a rule-constraint way is actually, can be valuable, I suppose.

Ethan: 53:52

Does that, do you feel like that any symmetry,

Brendan: 53:55

Yeah.

Ethan: 53:56

those are, so those are asymmetrical class systems, right? There's, there are class systems which are symmetrical, I guess, which would be like the gumshoe, non-classless, but it's kind of classy, right? You have these characters that are different, but they're symmetrical insofar as everybody has the same skill tree

Erik: 54:12

Yep

Ethan: 54:15

available to them. And then you have asymmetrical class systems like the traditional D&D, where I will never be able to cast spells because I'm Conan, right? And I wonder which, I mean, like, is one more fun than the other, if they are, like, if we're talking, because there are absolutely classless RPGs. I mean, I would say, like, some of us are playing Pendragon right now, right?

Brendan: 54:35

Right.

Ethan: 54:37

And we're all knights, right?

Erik: 54:40

You

Ethan: 54:41

You're...

Erik: 54:42

there isn't a niche protection going on.

Ethan: 54:45

Right.

Erik: 54:46

There, there's still the problem of having skills and generic optimums, but I agree with you that by making everybody nights, you don't create specific roles for people. I think that's right.

Ethan: 54:55

Yeah, right, like, we're all sort of the same, roughly in the same category. Yeah.

Erik: 55:00

Yeah. Right.

Brendan: 55:01

None of you guys are squires, huh?

Ethan: 55:03

I think we started off as squares, right?

Brendan: 55:04

[ Laughter ]

Ethan: 55:05

I forget.

Erik: 55:06

But, but even as Squire is just worse night, honestly.

Ethan: 55:09

Yes, yes.

Erik: 55:09

Yeah.

Brendan: 55:11

Night, night, night, night. Worst night.

Ethan: 55:13

Yep. Yeah, so I wonder whether or not that asymmetry, like, a well-designed asymmetry, I have fond feelings of that asymmetry. I have fond feelings of being, like, a mage or, like, and then switching over to a different class in D&D and thinking,"Wow, this is cool," you know, like, exploring this whole other little area. And it was poorly, by the way, that asymmetry was kind of poorly designed in early D&D, right?

Brendan: 55:37

Yeah.

Ethan: 55:38

And it didn't seem to detract from the fun.

Erik: 55:38

Yeah.

Ethan: 55:41

Like, whereas now, like, it's just, like, mathematically tuned in to the nth degree, right?

Erik: 55:48

So if you had a game where the design was, here's a resolution mechanic, roll a D six and, and somebody can, I mean, you make

Ethan: 55:54

Yeah.

Erik: 55:58

it interesting. You say, Hey, everybody's got to set up actions, but there's no, there's no specific type of action that you get a mechanical benefit for, right. It's just a resolution system.

Ethan: 56:09

Mm-hmm.

Erik: 56:10

And the GM is looking for lateral thinking and Israel, and it can be rewarded, right. It can say like, Oh, that's great. And so I'm going to give you a whatever plus X. What do we lose? Right.

Ethan: 56:22

Mm.

Erik: 56:23

And what do we lose if we were to play like, or is it all upside?

Ethan: 56:26

I can think of one thing that we lose.

Erik: 56:27

Yeah. Yep.

Ethan: 56:29

So I think-- well, I don't want to say you lose, but you don't get it unless there's some other mechanism for providing it or you have really highly motivated thinkers in your team, in your group. I guess it would be trope, right?

Erik: 56:42

I agree.

Ethan: 56:43

Like, ultimately, you know, when we're talking about role-playing games, there is a strong story component almost all the time, right? It would be very unusual to play, I think, a role-playing game in which there wasn't some sort of narrative arc.

Brendan: 56:55

Microscope.

Ethan: 56:55

Even in D&D, right? Like, there's-- what?

Erik: 56:56

Yeah.

Ethan: 56:59

Oh, you know, I still haven't played Microscope. Probably should kick me off the podcast since I haven't played that yet.

Erik: 57:04

Yeah.

Ethan: 57:04

It's sitting on the shelf behind me. But you would lose that sort of like the basket of being the L for the Hobbit

Erik: 57:08

Yeah.

Ethan: 57:12

or the, you know, the fighter Conan or whoever. Like, what is your sort of narrative function at the table? And maybe there-- as long as there's a way to provide that, I'm thinking of even like the agenda cards in Alien, Brendan, from our recent playthrough.

Brendan: 57:29

Yeah.

Ethan: 57:31

You know, those were my favorite part of that game. I think about those all the time, those agenda cards.

Erik: 57:36

Yeah. Yeah.

Ethan: 57:37

And just for the listener, you know, and we were playing Alien in, I guess, cinematic mode, right? And there were like three acts loosely for the game, which took place over-- yeah.

Brendan: 57:49

Literally, actually, but yes.[ Laughter ]

Ethan: 57:51

But it took place over whatever, I don't know, six sessions?

Brendan: 57:55

Yeah.

Ethan: 57:55

I forget how many sessions we played. So it wasn't commensurate necessarily with the number of sessions. We could have split acts inside one session. So we started off in Act 1.

Erik: 58:05

Yeah. Yeah.

Ethan: 58:06

Your character gets some cards that tell you what your agenda is. And then Act 2, that is modified with new agenda cards. And then the same with Act 3. And it really was like, you know, exciting. And I bought into it. I mean, like it really provided me with like clear direction. Regardless of the fact that I was playing, it turns out, you know, I was playing like a load-- a guy who was like just a grunt labor, right? And a loader.

Brendan: 58:29

Yep.

Ethan: 58:30

And also a synth. Covert synth. But despite all that, the most fascinating part for me was the agenda.

Erik: 58:35

Yeah. Yeah.

Ethan: 58:37

Just the covert agenda that I had.

Brendan: 58:39

Because of its impact on the narrative.

Ethan: 58:39

Yeah. Yeah.

Brendan: 58:41

Yeah.

Ethan: 58:41

So like, Eric, that's not answering your question totally. But, you know, I don't remember what my special skills were outside of like the impact that it had functionally and like could I breathe in space. But I do remember what my machinations were.

Brendan: 59:00

This is all actually, I think I'm coming to a controversial conclusion about, that, you know, will probably earn me even more letters from people outside of Finland.

Ethan: 59:01

Thank you.

Erik: 59:04

Yeah. Yeah.

Brendan: 59:10

And that is that, I wonder if classes are most useful when we are younger as adolescents and sort of learning, you know, like, I don't mean to make this an argument about maturity, but learning how to, you know, share space and get along with people and, you know, sit at a table and, you know, be good humans in terms of how we interact. And that, you know, classes in those, in that era, a class gives you, you know, an opportunity to both, you know, exercise expertise in some specific fashion.

Erik: 59:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Brendan: 59:42

It gives you a way to fit in along with the others in terms of like the narrative tropes that it enables. And it, you know, encourages you to, you know, share space with other people. And then as we become adults and we have had more experience with, you know, engaging with other people in those kinds of, you know, collaborative collegial ways, like, you know, classes are less important because that kind of instinct is baked into us

Erik: 1:00:03

Yeah. Yeah.

Brendan: 1:00:07

I mean, that's sort of where I'm coming to is like, you know, I have not wanted to play a system of classes in a very long time because I just, I'm not interested in like, you know, that mechanical side of things. And I'm wondering if that's just because I no longer see the need to level something up and fit into and like, I'm able to make my own niche happily alongside other people by playing off and riffing off of them because I now have experience doing that in my actual, like, human life.

Erik: 1:00:33

Yeah. Yeah.

Brendan: 1:00:36

[Laughter]

Ethan: 1:00:36

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Erik: 1:01:02

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brendan: 1:03:11

So what I hear you saying, Eric, is that D&D should be obligatory in elementary schools.

Erik: 1:03:30

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brendan: 1:04:55

I'm going to be thinking about parties of five druids and how to make that fun.

Erik: 1:04:58

Yeah. Yeah.

Brendan: 1:04:59

I mean, yeah, five parts. Oh, my God. What a great game that would be. Everybody has to sing every time. It's actually funny because, you know, oh, yeah. That's so many parts. It's funny because I was thinking about the one ring RPG and starter set, which I aspire to run at some point for all y'all. And the starter set, you know, like it's essentially, you know, level zero play, but it has pre-gen characters. They are all hobbits.

Erik: 1:05:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Brendan: 1:05:31

And the stakes are all incredibly low hobbit stakes, right? Like it's, I don't know, like, you know, someone messed with my vegetable garden or I'm, you know, but the stakes do escalate. But effectively, everyone's class is just hobbit, you know, and like there's a, you know, I think I'm curious to see how that plays out in practice because I think it's a great introduction to like, you know, a section of RPG goodness that is, you know,

Erik: 1:05:57

Yeah. Yeah.

Brendan: 1:05:59

not nailed except by sort of the sort of cozy game space. But like, you know, this notion that, you know, you can have five hobbits and still have a good time and people can still derive some sort of utility and use out of their characters. I am curious to see how that all plays out.

Ethan: 1:06:14

All right. Well, I'll see you all at second breakfast.

Brendan: 1:06:16

[Laughs]

Erik: 1:06:27

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.